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Message Board > Malarkey > Reteaching values

August 29, 2012, 10:38
Dennis
どこかにいる
2092 posts

Here are some values that need to be reteached beause they were learned to us wrongly when we were young.


1) Life is not fair

We learn that every man and woman is equal. We learn racism is bad/evil and we should help the beggars. When we grow up we learn to laugh at beggars. We are shocked when we see people with handicaps. Some even point and laugh, but most people just look at them as if they're aliens. Life ain't fair. some have more, other have less. That's how it has always been and it will never change. It's a part of humanity.

2) People do not share, people do not care

We learn as a kid that sharing is important. We see Kai-Lan and Dora share and love their friends. But why do we show kids these fantasies? It's simply not true. Everyday I see people complain "it's not fair!" These aren't babies but grownups talking. It's in our nature to fight against injustice towards ourselves. It's unfair but no one will ever care about your problem. They might listen for a while, but forget it afterwards. The worst part of it, is that you are also one of those people.

3) Helping people should be avoided

Helping people is good. You will feel better yourself! But it is such a waste of time. You see someone in need and you don't want to be involved. It has nothing to do with you. When you see someone in need all you will do is run! Run as far as you can and forget what you saw. Don't be brave, don't stand out. You might get hurt yourself and you are much more important than anyone else. This sounds sarcastic, but it's true, because whenever a mugger threatens to kill someone your adrenaline will give you the strength only to run and hide. Like a scared little mouse that sees the cat. He is dangerous and will probably also threaten to kill you. Don't give a shit about another soul. It may cost you your life. He may die but better he than you.

4) War is good

Wars are the result of all the above to its extreme. A conflict is created simply because a species such as primates lives in groups that must overthrow other croups. Kind of like 2 ant colonies battling or 2 bee hives battling. The war will skim the population (cruely!), the weakest will be removed and the strongest will survive. The survivors have more needs. The war has strenghten the race and the war has had positive impact on human nature.





These are just the beginning. All values taught to us are against the human nature. All my life I spent time helping people and caring about them, but never have I received more gratitude than some thanks. Very meant thank yous of course. But when I was in trouble I did not see anyone helping me. Everyone just RUNS if you're stuck on something so why would you help anyone in trouble? I could never rely on anyone and neither can you, ever.
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Kwakkel
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August 29, 2012, 22:31
PB
Defender of the faith
630 posts

I agree that life is not fair. I've held the hand of kids in Africa who possibly are dead now because of their really unfortunate situation (could be because of malnutrition, bad hygiene or even political instabillity). And here we are complaining, because surely most, if not all, of us have had some heavy times.

That's a matter of perspective. Surely I'm not lying about those kids in Africa, but that's far from home. We live in the perspective where not being able to buy a warm meal each day combined with a nasty medical condition sounds like about the roughest we can get from life.

Those kids in Africa would be helped with that situation: enough food to stay alive, capable and available healthcare, a decent government and maybe even shoes to wear... But for us it would feel like everything is taken from us and we're completely on our own. We need help to improve our situation, but the friends and family we expected to have, just turned their backs on us.

So in our times of trouble, we really have enough mental challenge to overcome our own situation. The story of the kids in Africa doesn't really help that much to handle it. But my point is: when we are in trouble, not everybody might recognise the situation as a problem where you need help, because that ís a matter of your perspective. We all have our troubles, and some problems we know surprisingly well how to handle on our own, or sometimes we just communicate that. It's important to communicate that you need help, when you need it.

Personally I beleive, that if you can communicate well why you need the kind of help that you ask, most strangers on the street are willing to help as long as it's a reasonable request, and they'll just do it for their conscience and your thanks. Surely many things can not be solved that way, but if you know how and what to ask, I'm sure it can ease your burden a little bit.

However, keep in mind, if you are communicating your frustration, perhaps from previous disapointment, people will be less likely to help you. Not because they do not want to help, but because they will try to protect their happyness and you communicate to take it away from them with your bad emotion. Besides, their conscience will not complain if you already judged them beforehand.

And finally: yeah, people do not care thát much about your problems, because we all have our troubles. But that doesn't mean they do not want to help, because we know how it feels.

Ok, so those are my two cents. I hope it helps you. It's how I view the world now, but do not hold it against me in the future :-)


Oh yeah: "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you aren’t troubled, for all this must happen, but the end is not yet." (Matthew 24:6), little reteaching needed for me there :aharr:
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September 1, 2012, 16:54
Rincewind
programmer
1545 posts

Just wanted to say this about helping others: don't forget: you can be selective in who you help and at what task you help. You don't have to help everyone in need with everything. Try to help others as investment in yourself. For example: when I help someone with a Fenix program I might eventually benefit from this person's increased Fenix knowledge, or enjoy playing his/her game.
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Personal website: http://www.loijson.com
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September 2, 2012, 21:00
PB
Defender of the faith
630 posts

If you see helping purely as an investment, I think you might get as dissapointed as Dennis notes:
Quoting Dennis:
All my life I spent time helping people and caring about them, but never have I received more gratitude than some thanks. Very meant thank yous of course. But when I was in trouble I did not see anyone helping me.


The philosophy I gained from my Christian faith is basically that we are blessed to bless others. So without the mentallity that helping is an investment. It's just loving your neighbour. When you can help, you should help without expecting anything back (of course: when reasonable).

With that mentallity, you might sometimes also receive help from people you do not expect it from. But also in church, people will disappoint you of course... People are the same, but this mentallity is a good one in my opinion...

[Edited on September 2, 2012 by PB]
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September 5, 2012, 09:44
Zomg
None
641 posts
Dennis - it's 'retaught'. =P
Also, it's 'beggers'. =P

I'm sorry to say this Dennis but it seems you have not practiced English for a long time. o.o

Further more:

Please do not assume 'we', because everyone is different and got taught differently. Man and woman are equal? For all you know some kid was brought up by some parent with the value that everyone is trying to be better than that kid so that kid has to DESTROY HIS ENEMY - his fellow man. I kind of think like that. Or some parent taught him that you can't trust anyone (my parents for example). This is good, because yes, you can't trust anyone. Not even yourself. We were not all molly-coddled, Dennis. Some of us were taught to be hard - defeat your enemy (the other person). Stand out. Be better. Be the best. Fuck everyone.

Quoting "Dennis":
It's unfair but no one will ever care about your problem. They might listen for a while, but forget it afterwards. The worst part of it, is that you are also one of those people.
-> Incorrect. It's not like that in Italy. Maybe it is like that in frigid-ass Westerners area. My girlfriend has friends that care for her all her life - with all her problems. When they have problems - they call her up crying and she pays attention to them. She puts all her own problems and her own life on hold just to help that person. She told me: "How do you expect to have friends if you don't care about them genuinely?" and she is right. If you want good friends, you have to be a good friend yourself - not just 'care' for a moment and then forget about it. This is being a shitty friend. Typical Western behavior..
Quoting "Dennis":
It has nothing to do with you. When you see someone in need all you will do is run! Run as far as you can and forget what you saw. Don't be brave, don't stand out
You're referring to Westerners, yet again. No, it's not like this in Italy or in any country where people actually have a HEART AND SOUL.
Quoting "Dennis":
because whenever a mugger threatens to kill someone your adrenaline will give you the strength only to run and hide. Like a scared little mouse that sees the cat.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD WHAT KIND OF PUSSY MUST YOU BE?! Any real man defends himself. I'm not talking about you but seriously - what kind of parents do you have if you haven't been taught to stand your ground? Be a man.

Who the fuck was taught that war is good?! LMAO

Sorry to break reality to you but IT IS TRUE: you have to survive - you have to be the strongest - or you will be extinguished from existence. This is the same with getting a woman. If you cannot attract a woman - you are by definition sterile.

[Edited on September 5, 2012 by Zomg]
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September 5, 2012, 10:07
Zomg
None
641 posts
Quoting PB:
I agree that life is not fair. I've held the hand of kids in Africa who possibly are dead now because of their really unfortunate situation (could be because of malnutrition, bad hygiene or even political instabillity). And here we are complaining, because surely most, if not all, of us have had some heavy times.

That's a matter of perspective. Surely I'm not lying about those kids in Africa, but that's far from home. We live in the perspective where not being able to buy a warm meal each day combined with a nasty medical condition sounds like about the roughest we can get from life.

Those kids in Africa would be helped with that situation: enough food to stay alive, capable and available healthcare, a decent government and maybe even shoes to wear...


My goooooooooooosh, what are you guys? Pussies? Don't say 'us'. I'm not like that.
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September 5, 2012, 10:10
Zomg
None
641 posts
Here's my view of the world: FUCK EVERYONE.
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September 5, 2012, 10:11
Zomg
None
641 posts
Quoting Rincewind:
Just wanted to say this about helping others: don't forget: you can be selective in who you help and at what task you help. You don't have to help everyone in need with everything. Try to help others as investment in yourself. For example: when I help someone with a Fenix program I might eventually benefit from this person's increased Fenix knowledge, or enjoy playing his/her game.


That's referred to as 'intellectual masturbation'.
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September 5, 2012, 10:12
Zomg
None
641 posts
Quoting PB:
If you see helping purely as an investment, I think you might get as dissapointed as Dennis notes:
Quoting Dennis:
All my life I spent time helping people and caring about them, but never have I received more gratitude than some thanks. Very meant thank yous of course. But when I was in trouble I did not see anyone helping me.

The philosophy I gained from my Christian faith is basically that we are blessed to bless others. So without the mentallity that helping is an investment. It's just loving your neighbour. When you can help, you should help without expecting anything back (of course: when reasonable).

With that mentallity, you might sometimes also receive help from people you do not expect it from. But also in church, people will disappoint you of course... People are the same, but this mentallity is a good one in my opinion...


Fuck your neighbor. You people see life too much with pink glasses.
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September 5, 2012, 23:35
PB
Defender of the faith
630 posts

Quoting Zomg:
It's not like that in Italy. Maybe it is like that in frigid-ass Westerners area. My girlfriend has friends that care for her all her life - with all her problems. When they have problems - they call her up crying and she pays attention to them. She puts all her own problems and her own life on hold just to help that person. She told me: "How do you expect to have friends if you don't care about them genuinely?" and she is right. If you want good friends, you have to be a good friend yourself - not just 'care' for a moment and then forget about it. This is being a shitty friend. Typical Western behavior..

You do not need to travel to Italy to find that kind of behaviour. I'm sure you can find intimate social circles in any free developed country. There are many sub-cultures.

My background lays within the church, and even there I know there is a huge diversity in this area. Some churches are really stiff: everybody comes to the service, listens and goes home, without even talking to each other. Other churches are extremely socially involved: They all know what's happening with everyone, if something minor is going on with one of the members of the church, they'll just pray for it during the service, and if your new to visit, everyone will say hi to get to know you (whether it's before, during or after the service).

That just tels how diverse people are, and also how diverse social circles are, even within a single country and culture. People are different and have different needs, so they form different common social behaviour.

Quoting Zomg:
Here's my view of the world: FUCK EVERYONE.

With that atitude, it will be really hard to stay accepted in a social circle like the italian one you described. Besides, what you labelled as "Western behavior" seems to suit you well. There is a saying "you reap what you sow", and I feel that this might be some wisdom you should learn from. As I said, life is not fair, so the saying is not always correct in my opinion, but what you sow does certainly have a big impact on it.

It's clear from your posts here and in the Society threat, that you do desire to be more socially accepted and acknowledged. In my view that would mean you need to become more socially involved and caring than you seem to be from the statements you write here.

Quoting Zomg:
Quoting PB:
I agree that life is not fair. I've held the hand of kids in Africa who possibly are dead now because of their really unfortunate situation (could be because of malnutrition, bad hygiene or even political instabillity). And here we are complaining, because surely most, if not all, of us have had some heavy times.

That's a matter of perspective. Surely I'm not lying about those kids in Africa, but that's far from home. We live in the perspective where not being able to buy a warm meal each day combined with a nasty medical condition sounds like about the roughest we can get from life.

Those kids in Africa would be helped with that situation: enough food to stay alive, capable and available healthcare, a decent government and maybe even shoes to wear...

My goooooooooooosh, what are you guys? Pussies? Don't say 'us'. I'm not like that.

Well first of all, I'd like to declare that I'm doing quite well at the moment, and I'm thankfull for that. Also I've learned valueable lessons from my visit in Africa two years ago.

Secondly I disagree with you that you are "not like that" (at least if you take the words "heavy times" with a grain of salt). If I look at your opening statement in the society threat, I see you complain about the social issues you have.

The difference in your complaint is, that you blame the cause of the problem on the people around you. Which in my opinion is more weak, than trying to elaborate on how you can handle situations from your own perspective.

If you could change your mentallity from "fu*ck everyone" (if that is really your mentallity) to something more collaborative, I do beleive that improves your situation.
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September 6, 2012, 09:38
Zomg
None
641 posts
Quoting "PB":
There is a saying "you reap what you sow",
Unlike you, I'm disconnected from what the world has tried to shove into my head. I'm not pathetically dependent on sayings or whatever other bullshit society has produced. No, I refuse living by others. I am an existentialist. I am an individualist. Yes, fuck everyone else. The only one you can find trust is yourself and not even a good one at that. Looks like you haven't been fucked around hard enough to know what the world really is like.

My father is a VERY wise man (many people agree!) and he has taught me that you can not trust a soul. He has taught me that you have to live by yourself and if you put any kind of hope in life, you'll get fucked over. He's right. No one REALLY gives a fuck about you - they only give a fuck about themselves. Your only friends are your direct family. Those are some true words right there.
I'm not going to listen to what some inexperienced kid has to tell me.

Your inexperience shows here. "Oh bla bla everyone is different." BULLSHIT. Everyone is the same. Thinking people are different is just an excuse to feel safe.

Quoting "PB":
The difference in your complaint is, that you blame the cause of the problem on the people around you. Which in my opinion is more weak, than trying to elaborate on how you can handle situations from your own perspective.
I know what I say. I'm not a jackass like most people. When I know it's EVERYONE AROUND ME THAT'S FUCKING UP - then this is the truth. You won't put blinds in front of my eyes.

Quoting "PB":
If you could change your mentallity from "fu*ck everyone" (if that is really your mentallity) to something more collaborative, I do beleive that improves your situation.

Nope, everyone can still go fuck themselves.

If someone genuinely likes me, then that person will come to me. I'm not going to change myself just because 99 billion sheep don't like me.
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September 6, 2012, 23:54
PB
Defender of the faith
630 posts

Well first of all, I'm sorry if I offended you, I assure you that that was not my intention. My goal was to help you to expand your view by openly reflecting what I see while holding that against my experience and opinions. Mainly because your posts triggered me to do that, and I liked it more to respond than not to.

Surely I might not be right about everything, but neither are you. In the end, in life, you learn from interaction with each other. So I'd invite you to try to find out, not only where I'm wrong, but where my response to you may help you to expand your own view.

Furthermore, I'm not telling you to trust people at all. It's fair to assume that if you trust someone, there is a risk that that person will turn out not to be trustworthy. So certainly it's wise to be prepared for that.

Obviously I'm not pleading to give people access to your bank account, but I do encourage an honest and open lifestyle. Yes, if you tell people personal information, it is likely that some will gossip about it. And some people just take advantage at the costs of others. But the best medicine is not to isolate yourself, but not to keep secrets that burden you and just deal with it.

In the end, people will move on and you meet new people, but if you do not share what's on your heart, you might carry more burden with you than you should.


Quoting Zomg:
Looks like you haven't been fucked around hard enough to know what the world really is like.
I've had my ups and downs, but I think it's fair to say that you're wrong with this statement. I do choose to handle the situation differently though.


Quoting Zomg:
I am an existentialist. I am an individualist.
Quoting Zomg:
Your inexperience shows here. "Oh bla bla everyone is different." BULLSHIT. Everyone is the same.

That seems to contradict. What ís your view on this subject?


Quoting Zomg:
Thinking people are different is just an excuse to feel safe.
For me it's just an observation. If everybody was like me, people would not have been the biggest threat to people... And I do agree that they are now.


Quoting Zomg:
Nope, everyone can still go fuck themselves.

It's their right to do so, but keep in mind that being involved might be more fun.
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September 7, 2012, 07:29
Zomg
None
641 posts
My view on what subject?

Anyway yesterday I found out that the people of the tech club I went to voted 100% against me. They want me out. What did I do? Fuck it. You see, everyone keeps fucking up on me. That's why I keep getting more and more angry inside of all the disappointments in my life - more specifically of all the rejections.

I am THE HULK.
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September 7, 2012, 21:53
PB
Defender of the faith
630 posts

Quoting Zomg:
My view on what subject?

What I meant was that I did not understand your thinking process. At one hand you say you are an existentialist and individualist, which implies that you beleive that people are unique. On the other hand you say that everyone is the same.

So I do not understand the point you're making. As if you meant to say, everybody is the same except me or something in that area. Anyway, I didn't understand you, so I asked.


As of you being kicked out of your club, that would suck. A tech club doesn't sound like something you easilly get kicked out from though.

It sounds like you're going through a verry frustrating time in your life. I don't know what caused that, but I understand that it has to come out one way or an other. I hope for you that you'll manage not to offend the people close to you. If I'm correct with this, I think it's a good idea for you to find some proffesional help, to help you handle this better.

[Edited on September 7, 2012 by PB]
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September 8, 2012, 14:32
Zomg
None
641 posts
What I mean is that everyone is the same, but I am am unique. I am one of the few sole people that is not sheeped in with society like the rest. I am unique. The rest isn't.

A 'frustrating time in my life'. LoL.. that has been going since forever. Since the day I was born. FUCK professional help. I don't need that bullshit.
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September 8, 2012, 22:35
DTM
Earthling!
821 posts

I think most annoyance with people / society in general is solved by:

1. having some life goals, what you want to achieve (that don't rely on or require other people), and that you can reasonably work towards.

2. learning to love yourself. When you really love yourself, you won't care if you suffer any rejections, because guess what? You're fucking awesome, and it's their loss.

And if you can achieve those things, and completely not require society and life a happy life without it, then... when you want to experiment in "society" again, or society tries to push its way into your life - you can take it or leave it, and if it works out, that's great, but otherwise, you're just fine as you were.

Of course, if you can't abide not being a part of society all the time... eh, well I guess you're screwed. Take up Buddhism or something.

</nonsense>
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:o
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Message Board > Malarkey > Reteaching values

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